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Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2721	Posted - 2015.11.18 10:19:09 - [1] - Quote Also need 3200mm armor plate. Both of these need to be too big for a battlecruiser to reasonably fit. You know, big enough for a battleship to actually consider that much powergrid a sacrifice. Matthew Dust wrote: It won't break the game. I'm just saying a Large Shield Extender on a battleship is like putting a small shield extender on a stabber. More like putting a medium shield extender on a Stabber. But the point remains the same--I can put a medium shield extender on a Rifter just fine, and it's very nearly a waste of a slot on a Stabber. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2721	Posted - 2015.11.18 11:52:53 - [2] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: I'm sure the sig bloom those things would have on a BS would be horrendous not to mention the PWG/CPU requirements. I would rather have CCP buff all shield extenders sizes to fit favorably into their propose meant for ship class. Large shield extenders ARE meant for cruisers. You get more hit points at the cost of powergrid and signature radius. It's a trade-off between offense and defense, and the sig radius bloom is just to prevent using them for nano exploits. You can fit a medium shield extender (frigate size) to your cruiser to get less shield hit points, but at a negligible cost to powergrid and sig radius. The medium on a cruiser primarily costs only the slot. Frigates can fit a medium as a trade-off, or a small if they can't spare fitting. Battleships don't get that choice. The only option for battleships is the weak one that costs barely any powergrid or sig radius (relatively speaking). Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2722	Posted - 2015.11.18 20:25:32 - [3] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: Agreed the entire way. Also worth noting: shield reps get the advantage of an optional shield amp mod so your reps get even better. Costs a midslot, yes, but it's something you can't quite duplicate with armor. Shield boost amplifiers are not nearly as useful as people seem to think. When you consider it's using a slot and CPU that could be spent on a hardener, a lot of times it only barely comes out on top in terms of net shield boost amount while not assisting your EHP at all. It's certainly no huge boon to active tanking and sometimes has little use beyond saving capacitor. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2722	Posted - 2015.11.18 23:26:01 - [4] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Armor battleships would need their grid tweaked in that case, because most fitted battleships are tight on grid even with plates only needing 500ish grid. They're only tight with top-end weapons. Try fitting some Dual Heavies and you'll free up thousands of megawatts. Then you can fit that huge plate, but it comes at a cost. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2722	Posted - 2015.11.19 00:26:53 - [5] - Quote Ellendras Silver wrote: because shield tanked ships have much higher resistances That is patently false. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2725	Posted - 2015.11.19 04:01:37 - [6] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: But they do have a use. They definitely have a use. A good example is on a Rattlesnake with a really strong shield tank. You have so many slots you can use for hardeners that your diminishing returns start to get in the way, and you can get significantly more EHP/s with the boost amplifier than without. But I see people using them poorly pretty often--fits with 1-2 hardeners and a boost amplifier are just bad. I will agree that armor doesn't always have the most favorable options for tanking, either active or passive. I can usually get more buffer tank with armor but it's a pretty small difference. The main balance between shields vs armor is that shields repair faster at the cost of lower capacitor efficiency. When you take logi into the mix, the difference is almost as negligible as the difference in buffer hit points. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2726	Posted - 2015.11.19 22:24:50 - [7] - Quote Thron Legacy wrote: When will people realize Shield is best for active and Armor best for buffer tank It'd be nice if armor actually had more buffer. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2729	Posted - 2015.11.20 03:18:47 - [8] - Quote elitatwo wrote: I don't think that battleships need more buffer but I would agree that the small shield booster needs some love-making to it. Small shield boosters are fine. If you want to do awesome shield boosting on a frigate, you need a medium shield booster. Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense but that's the way it is. The small is available if you can't fit a medium. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2731	Posted - 2015.11.20 18:10:56 - [9] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Reaver, small shield boosters do not give enough hp per cycle to be worthwile and medium shield boosters were designed to fit on destroyers not frigates. Back in the day we didn't have gun-grouping and small shield boosters were fine but the day gun-grouping was introduced you had one super-gun on any boat. The result was that the small shield booster became too small to be of any use. Right, like gun-grouping changes a ship's DPS. A T2-fit Merlin with no implants, boosters, or fleet boosts can rep 75 EHP/s cap stable with 1 remaining mid (for prop mod?), 1 remaining low, and anything you want in the highs. It's short on CPU but can function that way. Small shield boosters are a bit small for comfort, and mediums are a bit large for comfort, but the small is just as efficient as any other and it fits well for making a cap stable shield boosting frigate. Maybe frigates need more capacitor regen. Maybe the small shield booster should be a slightly larger size. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2732	Posted - 2015.11.21 11:12:00 - [10] - Quote elitatwo wrote: No but server ticks. I know this is very difficult to comprehend but it went like this: gun 1: fire server tick shield boost gun fire 2: server tick shield boost gun fire 3: server tick shield boost Now it goes: super-gun fire: Merlin in armor server tick shield boost Merlin goes poof. See the differnce now? Are you telling me that the weapons could not be activated between server ticks, and that it took eight server ticks to activate all the weapons? I thought people just linked the weapons to function keys and hit all eight in the same server tick. I was always too lazy to use hotkeys but can click four per server tick, so it's not that slow with ungrouped weapons. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2732	Posted - 2015.11.21 14:55:06 - [11] - Quote Tiddle Jr wrote: What would be the sig drawback? If we follow the current trend, we'd get something like this: X-Large Shield Extender I Volume: 40 m3 Powergrid: 720 MW CPU: 56 Tf Shield: 4500 Signature Radius: +85 m But that's clearly way too little powergrid, and if you study the HP increase over base by a percentage, might be a bit weak as well. So let's fix the Large, then we can fix the X-Large: Large Shield Extender I Volume: 40 m3 Powergrid: 280 MW(up from 150) CPU: 40 Tf Shield: 2400(up from 1900) Signature Radius: +25 m X-Large Shield Extender I Volume: 40 m3 Powergrid: 2800 MW CPU: 56 Tf Shield: 7200 Signature Radius: +85 m Now the Large Shield Extender is a proper cruiser extender, even fit for battlecruisers. Before, it was more of an industrial size module, a bit small for even a Stabber. The X-Large follows suit, being something far too large for cruisers and you could barely squeeze it onto a battlecruiser but it would give you a massive tank bonus if you did. It'll be quite adequate for battleships, and carry a trade-off with that high powergrid cost. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2732	Posted - 2015.11.21 23:32:04 - [12] - Quote unidenify wrote: we don't know what is their PG/CPU cost. For this reason, we won't know if we can fit them on BS or not. I think we can feel pretty confident that they won't fit on a battleship. If they did, they couldn't offer capital-level hit point bonuses. unidenify wrote: honest, my concern is that if they bring XL shield extender, it is possible that shield BS get nerf in shield hp. This isn't likely either because battleships don't have much of a hit point margin over combat battlecruisers. Capital ships have a tremendous hit point margin over battleships and while that is intentional, CCP is simply altering the meta by requiring that they get max hit points as a trade-off for other things. Capitals without these extenders will still have far more hit points than any battleship. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2733	Posted - 2015.11.22 02:51:31 - [13] - Quote unidenify wrote: Reaver, issue with XL shield extender if we release them without nerf, one that benefit most would be one that have good base for passive shield tank, as Scorpion Navy Issue, and Rattlesnake. as they will get much better passive tank with it. What's wrong with that? Drakes can get a really strong passive tank with large shield extenders. Rattlesnakes can't get a passive regen tank as strong as they can get a cap stable shield booster tank, and passive tank comes with much heftier penalties. Passive tanks are underpowered on battleships and need a buff. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2735	Posted - 2015.11.22 19:02:33 - [14] - Quote Luscius Uta wrote: Passive shield tanking still works great on Drakes but not so much on Battleships (a bit of EFT warrioring showed up that Barghest beats Rattlesnake in that regard, unless you cripple Rattlesnake's DPS by putting 3 or more SPRs. Passive shield regen tanks don't get good until you have a lot of modules dedicated to that tank. It's really unbalanced because you get tiny bonuses but there's no stacking penalty. That means very often the last module you put on can make the difference between a weak tank and a very strong one. That being said, it's still too weak. Case in point, two Rattlesnake fits I tried: [Rattlesnake, Active Regen] Capacitor Flux Coil II Capacitor Flux Coil II Capacitor Flux Coil II Capacitor Flux Coil II Capacitor Flux Coil II Damage Control II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Pith X-Type Explosive Deflection Field Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Shield Boost Amplifier II Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Large Micro Jump Drive Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Drone Link Augmentor I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I [Rattlesnake, Passive Regen] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Pith X-Type Explosive Deflection Field Shield Recharger II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 75 Large Micro Jump Drive Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Heavy Missile Drone Link Augmentor II Large Core Defense Field Purger I Large Core Defense Field Purger I Large Core Defense Field Purger I The numbers: both are using an Angel Cartel-approximate damage profile: 1 EM \| 2 Thermal \| 5 Kinetic \| 12 Explosive my skills Active regen Total effective hit points: 150,139 Effective shield hit points: 102,732 Shield resistances: 62% \| 69.6% \| 77.2% \| 91.9% Defense: 2162 Capacitor loss: -103.4 Capacitor gain: +103.7 Capacitor stability: stable at 32% Passive regen Total effective hit points: 134,511 Effective shield hit points: 108,221 Shield resistances: 56.5% \| 65.2% \| 73.9% \| 90.7% Defense: 1721 Capacitor loss: -8.1 Capacitor gain: +9.3 Capacitor stability: stable at 68% They both have similar hit points but the Active regen fit has way better defense. Now you might notice that the active regen ship has an X-type shield booster. Yes, the passive regen Rattlesnake's fit is a bit cheaper, but the Pith X-type X-Large Shield Booster is a very cheap module for its value, cheaper than some faction modules. I was unable to find any such deals that would improve the passive regen fit's tank. Not only does the active regen get a lot more defense, but it also has a rig slot and a medium slot dedicated to its offense. On top of that, the passive regen fit is strangled by its poor capacitor regen and needs a capacitor booster to stay afloat for any extended period of time, while the active regen fit has such rapid capacitor regen it can merely turn off its shield booster 15% of the time to power virtually anything else. Were the deadspace shield boosters more expensive, I'd still rather fly the active tank with a T2 booster (1347 defense), it's lower defense per second but not by a huge margin and it comes with better damage application and capacitor. In fact the T2 shield booster costs less capacitor, so I could take off a capacitor rig or perhaps a flux coil and get something else for damage application. I won't be using a passive Rattlesnake at the very least until I can fit a battleship-sized shield extender to it. At that point I might do it just to show off some nice defense numbers but I'll probably just stick with the shield booster fit. It's both easier to fly and far more scale-able. Here I showed you the passive tank at its best. Were I to devote five fewer slots to tank on both ships, the passive tank ship would suffer FAR more to the point of not even having a viable tank, while the active tank ship would still tank level 4 missions with ease. ====================================== I just have to ask: What is a 'uta' and why is it luscious? Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2743	Posted - 2015.12.01 02:34:23 - [15] - Quote Matthew Dust wrote: just throwing this out there fw shield extenders only offer a minute 250 hp more, where as faction amarr plates offer about 500 HP more Faction shield extender offers 5.769% more HP than T2 (+150), faction armor plate offers 9.375% more HP than T2 (+450). Armor plates actually give three times the amount bonus over T2 that shield extenders give, but when you measure it as a percentage, it is closer. I do believe the Thukker Large Shield Extender is due for a buff, however. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2743	Posted - 2015.12.01 09:35:41 - [16] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Sorry you two for knocking but shields regenerate and plates do not, carry on. They should still have the same percentage increase over the T2. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2744	Posted - 2015.12.02 01:54:41 - [17] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: would be nice for a passive rattlesnake to be worth a crap again.. It was only ever worth anything before because active tanking was sh+¡t and not everyone can be bothered to bring logi to help, especially when your PVE income is substantially higher when you run sites solo (which is generally easy if you have a good setup). You can still run PVE just fine in a passive regen Rattlesnake but its performance is and always has been sub-par. There has never been a ship that wasn't sub-par for passive regen tanking, including the Drake. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2745	Posted - 2015.12.02 05:13:18 - [18] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: Rattlesnake used to be able to pull off a 1500 EHP/s passive tank with a t2 fit... It was awesome... I wasn't aware anything had changed as far as passive tanking, but I do know the Rattlesnake gets more like 1000-1100 EHP/s with T2 fit. What changed? Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm

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